Letters and Replies

Revelation about Revival

Within the circles of religion are many strange ideas. The listing is long and wide. While this little article will not address all of these, it will look on one still active today. Throughout many denominations, the following is proactive and yet is totally opposite to the counsel of God of the most high.

It’s not a mystery from where bizarre notions come from as they are from the prince of darkness known as Satan. What is a mystery is how such ideas are adopted when the bible can easily dispel falsehoods?

The one subject this article address is:

‘Praying for Revival’.

It plays out like this… Many will pray for God to bring a revival again and again to no avail. God is saying no because its not prayer that brings such a presents of God showing Himself but He shows Himself where hearts are open for Him. Exactly opposite is the response.

Why would God want to pour out His spirit, blessing in many ways when the people are not making a single effort to pleasing Him? Its like the people cry out for God to bless them like God is a genie on call. This approach is a religious and selfish stance that God will not respond too.

If you want revival from God, then it’s not prayer for it but obedience for it. The grand secret is submission, obedience and willingness for God to be God. You see, God’s presents is on God’s terms. While God is present in spirit in all places, the revival presents is when God shows Himself by opening the windows of heaven. Ok, this expression is figurative but has meaning to any which are acute to wisdom of God. If this would be expounded on, it would be illustrated like this: God is omnipresent in all areas of the Earth and the Universe. Just because God is present in that form does not mean He is showing Himself by supernatural signs and wonders.

It’s happened before. Many would come to Father’s house called the church when miracles are present. Many will travel great distances to try to be under the rain of blessings when there is a seemly concentrated location where miracles are happening. Some of the past location of this happened in Canada and Florida. While this seems ok, its often a problem when the ones claiming to be in charge of the church God is using gets a head full of self and then practices of odd behaviors are implemented in order to keep the revival flowing.

Have you ever wondered why revivals tend to start, run a course of time and then fade out? Why would the outpouring of God drop off?

See why at:

http://www.angelfire.com/planet/charlesletters/

See link: Revelation about Revival

My reply

Hey china, just a response to your last email.

You said.....Why would God want to pour out His spirit, when the people are not making a single effort to pleasing Him?
That's what I recon. People are more into pleasing themselves today, and when they fail, they ask God to fix their stuff ups.
You said....If you want revival from God, then it’s not prayer for it but obedience for it.

I agree that obedience to God's WAY results in blessing, but as far as that word "revival" is concerned, I don't see that word anywhere in the bible. Is God in the habit of performing revivals mate? Or is this a 20th century ear tickling thingy? Personally I don't see God working with groups per say, but rather one on one relationships. And I don't see God pouring out His Spirit on people because a bunch of Hollywood preachers call for it. God does all things in His own time....not in our time. I look forward to chat on this topic mate. In short...revivals, this kind at least, are not in my vocabulary. To pray for a revival, is like praying for God to bless evil people.

You said...The grand secret is submission, obedience and willingness for God to be God.
Absolutely amen!

You said....Have you ever wondered why revivals tend to start, run a course of time and then fade out? Why would the outpouring of God drop off?
The reason to me is because they are not of God in the beginning. When I see a so called "revival"...I can be sure to see false teaching behind it. Look at Billy Graham and Benny Hinn and Oral Roberts for instance. These are false teachers who have claimed to bring millions to the alter...but look at one of these newbie's 20 years later and see how dedicated to God they really are. They bring more shame to God than Glory, and this is a great sin my friend. By "professing" to be God fearing, yet still sinning, only tells other non-believers what a false hypocritical religion we teach. Maybe one in a thousand might come to be saved through these false half-hearted attempts of turning to God. Show me even one revival advocate that teaches all those things you mention like obedience, overcoming sin, pleasing God etc...they all teach things like love, grace, forgiveness, and everlasting life which are of course true, but they all end their teaching there because the rest of the truth, the part that really counts, just doesn't tickle the ears like the other soft things.

http://www.angelfire.com/planet/charlesletters Hey mate...I found nothing at this address

Grace and peace good buddy.
mikey

List of Denominations sent by Field of Visions

Advent Christian Church
• Adventists
• African Methodist Episcopal Church
• African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
• Agapemone
• Aglipayans
• Amana Church Society
• Amish Church
• Anabaptists
• Anglican Communion
• Anglo-Catholic movement
• Armenian Church
• Arminianism
• Assemblies of God
• Baptists
• Behmenites
• Bereans
• Beroeans
• Bible Christians
• Bible societies
• Brethren
• Brethren in Christ
• Broad Church
• Brotherhood of the New Life
• Brownists
• Burghers
• Calixtines
• Calvinism
• Calvinistic Methodist Church
• Camisards
• Campbellites
• Catholic Apostolic Church
• Christadelphians
• Christian Catholic Church
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
• Christian Endeavor
• Christian Reformed Church
• Christian Science
• Christian socialism
• Christians
• Church of Christ, Scientist
• Church of England
• Church of the Brethren
• Church of the Nazarene
• Churches of Christ
• Churches of God, General Conference
• Community of Christ
• Confessing Church
• Congregationalism
• Covenanters
• Cumberland Presbyterian Church
• Diggers
• Disciples of Christ
• dissenters
• Doukhobors
• Dukhobors
• Dunkards
• Dunkers
• Dutch Reformed Church
• England, Church of
• Episcopal Church
• Episcopal Church, Reformed
• Ethical Culture movement
• Evangelical Alliance
• Evangelical and Reformed Church
• Evangelical Church
• Evangelical United Brethren Church
• Familists
• Fifth Monarchy Men
• Foursquare Gospel, International Church of the
• Free Church of Scotland
• Friends, Religious Society of
• fundamentalism
• German Baptist Brethren
• German Catholics
• German Reformed Church
• Gideons
• Glassites
• Harmony Society
• High Church
• Huguenots
• Hussites
• Hutterian Brethren
• Illuminati
• Independents
• Ireland, Church of
• Jehovah£s Witnesses
• Latter Day Saints, Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of
• Latter-day Saints, Church of Jesus Christ of
• Levelers
• Lollardry
• Low Church
• Lutheranism
• Mennonites
• Methodism
• Moral Re-Armament
• Moravian Church
• Mormons
• National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America
• New Church
• New Jerusalem, Church of the
• New Thought
• nonconformists
• Oxford Group
• Oxford movement
• Peculiar People
• Pentecostalism
• People£s Temple
• Pietism
• Plymouth Brethren
• Presbyterianism
• Protestant Episcopal Church
• Protestantism
• Puritanism
• Quakers
• quietism
• Racovian Catechism
• Ranters
• Reformation
• Reformed Church in America
• Reformed Church in the United States
• Reformed churches
• Reformed Episcopal Church
• Reformed Presbyterianism
• Remonstrants
• Renewed Church of the Brethren
• River Brethren
• Sabbatarians
• Salvation Army
• Scotland, Church of
• Scotland, Free Church of
• Second Adventists
• separatists
• Seventh-Day Adventists
• Seventh-Day Baptists
• Shakers
• Social Gospel
• Socinianism
• Solemn League and Covenant
• South India, Church of
• Taborites
• Tractarian movement
• Tunkers
• Unitarian Universalist Association
• Unitarianism
• Unitas Fratrum
• United Brethren in Christ
• United Church of Canada
• United Church of Christ
• United Methodist Church
• United Presbyterian Church
• United Zion Church
• Unity
• Universalist Church of America
• Utraquists
• Vaudois
• Waldenses
• World Council of Churches
• Yorker Brethren
• Zionites

Sister Lee

My sister Lee only recently came out of the Roman Catholic Church sometime in 2005 and began a new life in a Protestant church in Queensland Australia. PTL. The following are some emails I intended to send but felt God was holding me back. Not because what was said is a lie, but that the time was not ready yet. Also are some emails I actually sent to her answering her questions. Lee's text in normal font and mine in bold.

Here she writes in reply to me telling her about our sick dad who lives far away in a caravan/trailer.......... I Just meant - what is happening to the place he was living in at the caravan park ( thought it may have been a caravan). Is he renting it etc. and are they keeping it and his belongings for him, being that he may be away for quite a while.......Lee

Oh ok Lee. He does live in a caravan which will be left 'as is' until he gets back from hospital. He owns the van but willed it to Russell when he dies. All he has to pay is the rent for the ground it is on.

Cheers...Mikey

O.K Michael. That's fine. I was only concerned with wether his affairs were being organised. I am not interested in any financial things such as wills. I have never borrowed anything from anyone my whole life and I am not interested in money only "peace". Dad gave Sky some money to buy a flute (at his own insistence because he is so interested in music) and he gave Jamie 200 to do a course. That is the beginning and the end of any thing he has ever given to anyone related to me. If I was interested in money I would be hovering around Healesville now but I won't even go near anything remotely connected to any will. The family can do what they like with it and fight about it to the bitter end. I have tried to give Dad what comfort I could by being available to keep in touch with. I feel God asked me to do this as a sign that I had forgiven him for any past grievances. I am at peace with the past now.
I have written this to you because I get the distinct impression that you get irritated by my questions and you feel I have ulterior motives. I wish you could trust me enough that you could talk about personal things but it seems that you just want to keep all communications on a "professional" or a "Religious" basis. I write from the heart and talk about things that are on my mind. I'm sorry if that offends you. I am interested in you and your life because you are my closest brother and there are no ulterior motives. I hope you understand what I am trying to say and know that I speak with total sincerity. Be honest with me if you would rather I stuck totally to the Christianity subject. My thoughts and prayers are with you Michael......Lee

Dear Lee, loosen up sis will ya. You sound paranoid lol. If you don't chill out a little, some of the paranoia might spill on to me hehe. What's all this talk about wills and money and such. I am not really interested. When I said the caravan was willed to Russell , what I should have said was Dad gave it to him, which is a long storey and I didn't want to go into it. You asked about the caravan, and I told you. Sheesh Lee, what gives you the idea I am irritated by your questions or that I might think you have ulterior motives? What I am irritated about is your claims without reason though. You say you have the "distinct impression" ... is this a feeling or more than that? Please show me. What have I said to put that notion in your head? As far as talking about personal things...there is nothing to share in that area. I am growing old just like everyone else...a nagging pain here and a sore back there. That's about as personal as I get. I don't go anywhere or do anything worth talking about except to see mum and dad occasionally...and I thought I have already shared all that with you.

If you do not want to talk about God, then just tell me Lee. I wont be offended I promise. I will not love you more or less for it. When you said you were going to church I got all excited and for the first time I felt I had something in common with you about God and wanted to share my experiences is all. If you want to have ongoing chat with me little sister, I had better be up front with you right now. God is my ONLY reason for living, nothing else gets even close. I live to learn more and more about His ways and seek to enter His kingdom while I still have this flesh. By giving God my personal time and denying worldly matters He has found it within His will to reveal certain things to me. Some things I can share with you and others I am not permitted simply because these things are known only by seeking.

Lee, I would like to ask you to go over our email chat and try to find something that causes you to think I am upset or angry with you except to correct you on the puppy thing. When you find something, email it to me and then we can discuss it and clear up the matter. It does not offend me that you speak from your heart...as a matter of fact I do the same, it's just you don't see it. You see, my heart is with God and that's why I like to talk about Him Lee (not that I have flooded our emails with God talk like you make out). He is in my heart and that is where my treasure is, and where I hope yours might be also.

To be honest Lee...yes, I like to talk about God. NOT religion, as that is the downfall of the world. Even Christianity has lost it's way mostly. I don't see any value talking about everyday stuff of this world like...how well your kid did at school or who won the footy last week, BUT I see allot of value in life saving knowledge. You see Lee, as believers in Jesus, we are not expected to be normal...as a matter of fact it is a command of God that we be peculiar. While you are normal, you are worldly, and God's children are not supposed to be worldly. While in this state of mind Jesus calls us "Lukewarm" and discards us as His own.

As you are a babe in Christ still Lee, it is crucial that you have a burning desire to know more about your Father God. Knowledge of His ways is heavenly food for the spirit, that if used in the way it was meant, can rare a healthy and mature soul. If you desire not for this food...you will remain a babe all your days living on milk and not really knowing the joy of the truth that is in the MEAT of His word, i.e. solid food. I know it is hard for you to imagine that I have reached this level and experienced these things that I speak of, but think about it Lee...if I didn't, then what have I to gain by sharing it with you under false pretence? You will know you are well on the way to KNOWING God when you loose your love of the world, but remember this Lee, ONLY by a humble heart can you even get near the truth.

I know in the past that you say I have plenty of time to give God, and that because you have a family that it hard for you to do the same. Well this is true, it is hard...but not impossible. As you grow in the Lord you will desire more and more of time with Him. It is important that you grow, as being satisfied with what you have already breeds only pride and leaves one "stagnant" in the Lord. Going to church and missions is all very good, but spending 'time' with God alone in prayer and meditation or even just in awe of His creation is excellent, and gives more to growth than a 1000 church visits. We are here for one reason...to grow spiritually. Of this I am certain. Know and understand this Lee, until you know yourself, you can not have a clue about God, and if God is not first in ones life...that one has no clue about themself. This is good advice.

All I can do is pass on to you some of what I have learnt myself by the hard way, i.e. the narrow way spoken of by Jesus. It is not easy to give up the things we love in this world, but by doing so in order to seek truth will certainly not go unrewarded. As a matter of fact...the reward will me much more that we deserve. For many years now I chose to live this way which has caused me to see deeper things that are not given to the average person, but I give this precious information to you for free Lee because you are my (little) sister who I do love whether you believe or not. This is not advice I give to others because they must find out for themselves, but for you I offer you a shortcut because I do not want you to suffer. Intellectually you are much higher than me, much more intelligent and perhaps even much more moral than myself...but spiritually I do have much to offer. I hope you can understand that Lee, as I have said before...your soul is all I am concerned for as I am for everyone.

I am happy that you are interested in me because I am your closest brother, and I appreciate that also, and I assure you the feeling is mutual. But what you MUST understand is that I am not normal Lee...I am peculiar for sure. This means I hold dear to me things that are foreign to others and hate things that are loved by others. When/If you are able to reach this point, you will understand. It will take a giant step in faith to go there, and the price is great in terms of worldly things, but the rewards are priceless. I am honest and sincere with you Lee, and thank you for your prayers.

This might be a good note to finish on for now.

Love Michael.

End this subject

Lee

Just a real quick note to let me know that I received your call message. I was at a church meeting about that mission trip. Michelle and Isla are meeting me at the airport so I will be well taken care of for 2 hours. Dad rang last Monday- doesn't really say that much and like you he never really refers to himself personally so I never really know the state of his health. When he started calling he said that he didn't ever expect me to see him or go to his funeral that he only wanted to keep in contact. There is water under the bridge with me and Dad and i know he doesn't approve of my husband choice but i have tried to forgive the past and converse with him in his last years. My heart will be with him if he dies and I will pray for his soul but I can't afford the finances to go to his funeral. There are too many family problems involved too ,especially since Russell has already accused me indirectly( behind my back) of milking Dad of money etc. I can't be bothered with all of that, Michael and I'm going to keep right out of it. I have a mountain of my own family problems and I am trying to do my best for God as well so I have to concentrate on those areas at the moment. I am not Superwoman I'm afraid - my plate is full......God be with you.....Lee

Oki doke lee. have a good trip.
Mike

Thanks for understanding my position, Michael. I am torn about these matters but life gives me very little choice. The only way i could go to Dads funeral is if God provided me with a ticket and someone guaranteed Russell wouldn't be there. He has written me off and it still hurts I'm afraid. I'm not strong enough a person to face him even............Lee

Lee, thats ok...you made your decision. Life is about decisions...we make them, and then we live with them, and we don't fret about what others think. If we all made the same decisions then we would be robots. One thing though Lee...dad is alive at the moment, do you think he will die soon? I have seen him only the other day, and I see he is pretty crook, but I cant say when he will die and haven't even thought about his funeral except to worry about that when it comes. Who knows, mine or your may even come before his...God only knows.
As far as understanding your position...yes I do understand, but that doesn't mean I say it is right. I wont comment on that because I am not certain. Pray and seek God's guidence on that one.

gbu
Michael

I hope you havn't misunderstood my last email Michael. I only mentioned Dad's funeral because that was one of the first things that he brought up to me when we first started communicating. I am not dwelling on it personally but he made a point of suggesting the end was near. I'm sincerely sorry if you got the impression I was zeroing in on his death .Feel free to speak of his health any time you want and we will forget I even mentioned a funeral.

I am a extremely distressed this week as our little dog Angel was savaged by 3 big dogs last Friday and after 2 days of trying to save her at a vet hospital we agreed to have her put down(as the pain was too much for the little fighter+ it had already amounted to about 3,000 to try and save her-on our line of credit) She was my most faithful friend and loyal companion- I considered her almost a person and it tore me apart to see a pack of dogs tearing her apart.
It was in some-one elses yard and they even went for David when he tried to retrieve Angel. She was in a bad way but we just had to try to save her, as she was just the most loved dog ( by everyone in the family). I still feel sick in the stomach and I feel a bit like "Job" at the moment - like when are bad things going to stop happening to me? I am giving most of my time and a lot of my finances to God and he takes one of my most valuable possessions from me in such a cruel horrible way. I know I will feel better in time but the pain at the moment is so great Michael. the dog belonged to Sky officially and she is trying to be so strong for me, because she knows I am hurting so much. Say a prayer for me please! (that God will heal my heart quickly and I can get on with living) Meanwhile life goes on.......................by the Grace of God........Lee

Sorry to hear about you dog Lee. Very sad.

No Lee, I didn't misunderstand your last email, but I hope I have misunderstood this one when you appear to blame God for your loss.
You seem to be under stress so I will leave it there except to say if I perceive correctly you need to repent of that immediately.
gbu

Sorry to upset you, Michael. Yes I suppose I am under stress (like how to pay the bills) but the main thing I was feeling when I emailed you was " grief". I don't think there is a person on this planet ( besides my family)that understands how I felt about Angel so they do not really understand the the grief I have felt lately. I thought Angel was a gift from God and I know God at least knew how I felt about her. I am sure he will understand my temporary lapse of sanity and forgive me for my lack of faith- as I have asked him.

I have repented Michael. I spent all afternoon working on a backyard blitz thing to raise money for the Mission trip I am going on. Most of my life is devoted to God at present, "still ". My daughter Sky helped me to see things more reasonably by saying that she thinks God has plans for Angel and that she is sure Angel is happy where she is. I feel better now so don't worry about my soul. ......Bye for now......Peace be with you......Lee

Thats all ok Lee I do understand, and don't fret now about upsetting anybody either, just concentrate on getting yourself ready for Messiah. That's all that should be on your mind right now.

gbu

PS: One last thing Lee. The best word is in the bible, so for the sake of your soul...read it like there is no tomorrow, all the time praying for understanding, for God's children die for the lack of knowledge.

End of subject

David from signpost forum discussing homosexuality in the church.

David’s text is in normal font while my answer is bold, and my further comments are italics.

I just love the way that people refer to some kind of esoteric principle when they have no way to support their position.

There is no mystery about what I said there David. It is straight forward I thought. I will simplify it for argument sake though. Lets say you do not believe there is a God and I do. You cannot prove there is no God, and I can not prove there is a God…according to man’s carnal minds. It becomes a standoff …no where else to go. BUT, in the Spirit, these things can be explained perfectly that even a child can understand. If there is any ‘esoteric principle’ involved at all, it might be to some, only in the acquiring of the spiritual powers to begin with.

Your sarcasm is unbecoming.

I am sorry David if you perceived it that way, in which case I apologize for my ambiguity because it was not my intention to come across as sarcastic.

To suggest that the Scriptures disapprove of homosexuality is far more difficult than you may think. That is, unless you are committed to deliberately simplistic and lazy exegesis.

Very true David, as it is the truth that sets us free, so the real meaning of biblical text, if it is indeed truly authentic, is where the truth resides. I know of many who make the mistake of taking text out of context or using literal instead of apocalyptic language when the occasion arrives. Of course it does take some level of discernment to know the difference. And you are also right about the scriptures concerning approvable of homosexual relations … it only takes a few verses to “suggest” Gods disapproval of the act, but needs an in depth study to prove beyond a shadow of doubt, of which I am prepared to do if you want. Just let me know friend.

And your point is?

The point is that homosexual acts were not tolerated legally in any country or religion in the whole world, including indigenous people, in the past that I know of. If there was at all, it would have to be minuscule. History is abundant with the persecution and execution of homosexuals. Rather than bore the audience here with pages and pages of evidence, just Google ‘ ancient homosexual laws’ and you will find over 1 million links. Just a few to get you started though…

The Law in England, 1290-1885

Fleta, xxxviii.3: Those who have dealings with Jews or Jewesses, those who commit bestiality, and sodomists, are to be buried alive after legal proof that they were atken in the act, and public conviction"

Britton, i.10: "Let enquiry also be made of those who feloniously in time of peace have burnt other's corn or houses, and those who are attainted thereof shall be burnt, so that they might be punished in like manner as they have offended. The same sentence shall be passed upon sorcerers, sorceresses, renegades, sodomists, and heretics publicly convicted"

48&49 Vict. c.69, 11: "Any male person who, in public or private, commits or is party to the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable at the discretion of the Court to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years, with or without hard labor" (Me) So for the first time private acts were brought under the scope of the law, as were acts other than anal penetration. This became the famous blackmailer's charter, and was the law used to convict Oscar Wilde (who was of course homosexual).

Your reading of Sodom and Gomorrah is inaccurate.

Genesis chapter 19 records the two angels, disguised as human men, visiting Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot met the angels in the city and begged them to stay at his house. Then we see…."Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom, both young and old surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.’ The angels then proceeded to blind all the men of Sodom and Gomorrah and told Lot and his family to escape before God pours out His wrath on the cities. After they escaped, the Lord destroyed the cities with burning sulfur. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities … and also the vegetation in the land.

So then David, what then was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? It is profusely clear to the multitude that homosexuality was the major sin here. And yes, there were other sins of course, but if homosexuality was not the main sin….any rational person must acknowledge it was at least part of them. I know of some who use the sin of inhospitality by the mob in these verses to cover their tracks, but this is an extremely weak argument to justify the acceptance of their own sin before God. One thing we know for sure is that homosexuals lived there, and they together with other types of sinners were all destroyed. Given that God is merciful and just, we have to admit that no innocent occupant of this city was destroyed by mistake along with the sinners, so this is clear cut proof that the act of sodomy is not pleasing to God.

Trying to prove right from wrong without God is like trying to cross the Indian Ocean in a canoe without a paddle. The Spirit comes to those who repent, so if you cannot at least acknowledge the sin, then you cannot repent, therefore void of the Godliness required to convict repentance. First comes the confession, and then comes the grace, not the other way around.

So, in other words, if someone disagrees with your position they must not have the Spirit?

No my friend! What I am saying is …if someone disagrees with GOD, they do not have the Holy Spirit. As much as God loves His creation, He still does not take sin lightly as some might suppose. I can categorically profess that while one is unrepentant, this one is void of the Holy Spirit. Am I saying that all sinners are without God and without salvation? Heaven forbid mate, all mankind would perish if this was to be true. No, I am saying that refusal to repent is EVIDENCE that the Holy Spirit is not within. Does this mean if one repents and later falls back he is a goner? Of course not. Did Jesus not say that … “repent AND sin no more”? So repenting is acknowledging the sin and turning away from it, and the sin no more bit is separate iissue. So put simply Jesus is saying to the woman…be remorseful and admit your sin, which shows God you are sorry, and THEN don’t do it any more. Can you see this now David? It’s the SORRY part that opens the door to the Holy Spirit, and NOT the act of sinning no more. Once the HS is within, then it can give the power to overcome the sin. It’s all about faith brother, and how much we love our Father. We don’t accomplish anything good on our own…we are not capable of it…it is He who is within that gives you the power. If you disagree with this, you are not disagreeing with me at all brother David….but you are in argument with God. I did not make the rules ( although I totally agree with them).

Look fellow believers in The Almighty who still desire to be gay, I do not condemn you in any way as I love you in the ways of Jesus our savoir, and know your feelings are deep and affectionate toward God and man, but I am merely bringing to light another perspective that may not have been provided here in the past.

Speaking as someone who is not gay but nonetheless has several gay members in my church, I’m puzzled by your suggestion. Do you honestly think that those who disagree with you have never heard the kind of arguments that you are spouting? That they have never heard each and every verse used to attempt to beat them into submission? You are puzzled because you are still learning. We all are. Some are of course more advanced than others which causes many Christians to see things differently. Salvation is a process, not an instant magical change from this to that as the church would have you believe. This does not by any means suggest that one is less important than the other, it simply means that by obedience, and not how many years you have been practicing, one has drawn closer to God. Some take a lifetime and never get close because of dogma and pride, and yet others move on early having open minds and a humble heart. It’s all according to faith. And no David, I do not suppose you have not heard the argument I bring forth…quite the contrary actually, you seem more versed in the subject than I. I am merely bringing God into the situation, as by reading some posts on this site, I come to the conclusion He is not. It’s more about the knowledge of man than the knowledge of God.

I can see that I am taking up way too much text space here and so will now observe from the back stalls for awhile. It was never my intention to go this far. It’s amazing how one can get caught up so much in such things. I merely meant to make a point and see the reaction, in this way it tells me much about the reactor. I can then easily discern the heart of such, and then move on in the best direction (I think) to offer help. I see much confusion here, and much resentment on both sides. Instead of trying to help, I see some people standing in the way of progress with their name calling and such. Some of the language I saw on the other thread by professing Christians ( of both sides) left me with only one conclusion … God is not with them. Some on the other hand I can see have come a long way in their search for truth and show the obedience to the Holy Spirit

David, I pray that you will not see me as your enemy or your teacher, but rather a friend and subordinate, who has just a little “extra” to offer you. Maybe you can use it, maybe you can’t. Maybe I am totally out of place, I can’t be sure, but at least I offer my thoughts that might help someone in someway. You are much more intelligent than me, so I know if I can even supply the slightest bit of truth, that you will use it better than me, in sharing it with the world. I do not judge anyone, but I do judge the act which is in all manner and form…unpleasing to God. If one needs proof of this, it shows me, although God loves them and they love God, they still have a little way to go in their walk with Him. It is that little extra I hope to bring to this forum that might lead some closer in their walk, and if I am wrong, I will have to face God and the consequences one day…as we all must.

God be with all of us.